Just the discussion I think needs to be had (words from trans people recognizing there is no ‘born in the wrong body’). It’s telling that you (the author?) use the term wanting to be a ‘cute girl’ for, to me, it’s also about youth, attractiveness, the promise of staying young forever! Block puberty? Never grow up? Yes please! It stems from perceiving oneself as ugly (or worse: fat!) I’m betting that even the ‘cute girls’ have insecurities? Those considerations go away quickly as we age & get ugly, more beautiful young people coming up. Find the beauty in all, or try to if we can overcome our feelings of bodily discomfort? I would add the faith in modern medicine, the pills & drugs that (promise to?) make us happy. The boob job, grow a beard, booze, illicit drugs (or w/e).
I think I understand (!) In truth, I have little personal experience relating to trans-identified people. Was involved with a gay-rights employee group for 20 years. Ostensibly we called ourselves LGBT but, in truth, no T ever joined. I did hear, as I was retiring (in 2014), that someone was reaching out. I’m seeing a lot more discussion on social media these days, of course. Lots of rancor, sadly. It’s why I think it’d be good for mtf’s, especially, to take stands ‘for women’ and support no mtfs (or dsds) in women’s competitive sports (a stand Caitlin Jennings has espoused, for instance). Don’t want to sound anti-trans but we need a reasonable discourse to try and bridge the political divides, without bashing on trans-identifying people. My studies have been in social psych, hence why I see social factors (pressures to conform to and accept gender stereotypes, social contagion, the medical-industrial complex, etc) as determinative of behaviors & ‘feelings’ to a large degree. Hormones, too but so much is socialization. It’s why I found Beauvoir eye-opening: little babies and kids are inundated with cues re: gender expectations. Peace to you!
i agree on restrictions like sports, medical transitioning can only do so much and males still have a competitive advantage in sporting even if they've undergone extensive medical feminization. i'm not so sure people transition because of gender roles, since people do not actually treat you as the other sex unless you're very lucky, not much stigma is actually escaped and i do think most transitioners know this, but those are nuances that should be discussed after a reasonable bridge on more pressing issues is reached. i also study psychology, and lean towards the belief that humans aren't infinitely malleable (the good ol nature vs nurture debate!)
i also agree on no male dsd's in women's sports, which is a more controversial position i suppose. imane khelif is a man with a congenital disorder impacting genital development, not a woman. it is not hate to say this.
a better approach would be to allow sports competition organizers to create a list of genetic, developmental and other medical conditions that are considered unfair advantage in the given sport, without calling the disqualified people "men." competitive sports are not for everyone. it's mostly just for entertainment. people like Imane Khelif could have been told that she wasn't allowed to compete in sports for medical reasons. and she could live her private life as a woman without ever being publicly humiliated and slandered.
unless the goal is to eradicate all trans people from society (regardless whether they want to do sports or not) all trans-related "concerns" could be resolved without forcing trans people to show stigmatizing M letters to random strangers who otherwise wouldn't care, and be subjected to all kinds of arbitrary gender policing, segregation and discrimination. if some pure-blood women wish for segregated spaces, they can create and maintain them as private spaces, and create their own rules (such as asking for medical documents), just in the case of sports organizers. but these should be local policies written by the operators, not state-mandated (e.g. bathroom bills). and non-segregated, trans-inclusive or gender-neutral alternatives should be available.
in the case of locker rooms, if some people have body disfigurements that can horrify or disturb others, they can be offered single-occupant spaces to avoid humiliating situations. not just testosterone damage but other disfigurements too, such as burn scars, skin conditions, regretted tattoos etc.
in medicine, chromosomes could be treated just like other medical data such as blood types or allergies. accessing such data could be life saving in certain situations, but passports and driver's licenses are not medical documents, and hypothetical medical emergencies are not a good excuse for making such data publicly available without opt-outs.
in the case of prisons, corrections officers probably know how to handle dangerous criminals. solitary confinement is always an option. but they can put violent trans-identified AMAB criminals together, or even make trans-only prisons.
in crime statistics, if the data are anonymized, they can use non-public information about the offenders, including assigned sex at birth. it still isn't necessary that such data should be publicly available, regardless whether one committed a crime or not.
so i don't think state-mandated misgendering trans people is ever necessary.
i think stealth makes sense for passing transwomen, to avoid public stigma. it is what i am shooting towards, after all. i want to change my documents. bathroom bills are dumb, women should be allowed to tell someone who obviously looks like a man to leave tho.
interesting that you're self-aware about agp but still refer to "testosterone damage" as an objective concept. the psychology of autoandrophobia... (i experience this too)
I suspect it’s more like growth hormone damage. Testosterone poisoning causes hairiness, muscularity, skin damage, scalp hair loss, loss of eyelash thickness/length and vocal damage. Those are bad enough, but relatively manageable compared to bone deformities.
Excessive growth hormone causes this acromegaly-like bone structure deformities such as big hands and feet, brow ridge, big bony nose, and an overally big face and big frame. People with such features are hard to love or sympathize with, possibly because they have smaller eyes compared to their heads. And thick bony faces are more designed for resisting punches rather than for expressing emotions.
I noticed that even puberty-blocked transsexuals have some of those features. Less so than adult transitioners but more so than cis women. So I think even pre-pubertal (or pre natal?) testosterone makes people somehow more susceptible to bone growths later in life.
...hypothetical medical emergencies are not a good excuse for making such data publicly available without opt-outs.
in the case of prisons, corrections officers probably know how to handle dangerous criminals. solitary confinement is always an option. but they can put violent trans-identified AMAB criminals together, or even make trans-only prisons.
in crime statistics, if the data are anonymized, they can use non-public information about the offenders, including assigned sex at birth. it still isn't necessary that such data should be publicly available, regardless whether one committed a crime or not.
so i don't think state-mandated misgendering trans people is ever necessary.
i think violent male offenders should not be put in trans-only wards if they existed, especially not if they trans identified post incarceration. letting any man identify into a ward for transitioners would be very dangerous for medicalized transwomen.
Its good that you recognise your orientation. I have an autohet friend. Yes the autohet narative of the feminised brain, by activists. Mis quoting research on the homosexual brain. Helps no one long term. Live your best life.
"It feels so extremely broken to admit you’re a boy who just really wants to have breasts and a vagina and really wants to be desired in bed like a woman."
I can't pretend to know or even imagine what this brokenness would feel like but it's sorrowful that you feel broken by it 💔
I wish I could convince you that life doesn't have to be this hard. Or this fucked up. Good luck, sex is nothing compared to the joy of being alive. Go volunteer to live with the Gazans, that'll straighten you right out!
Just the discussion I think needs to be had (words from trans people recognizing there is no ‘born in the wrong body’). It’s telling that you (the author?) use the term wanting to be a ‘cute girl’ for, to me, it’s also about youth, attractiveness, the promise of staying young forever! Block puberty? Never grow up? Yes please! It stems from perceiving oneself as ugly (or worse: fat!) I’m betting that even the ‘cute girls’ have insecurities? Those considerations go away quickly as we age & get ugly, more beautiful young people coming up. Find the beauty in all, or try to if we can overcome our feelings of bodily discomfort? I would add the faith in modern medicine, the pills & drugs that (promise to?) make us happy. The boob job, grow a beard, booze, illicit drugs (or w/e).
Thanks!
i'm happy with the thought of looking like an old woman one day! i was describing my sexual fantasies as a person who is currently young.
i was moreso describing stereotypes of mtf people that i find it humiliating to be associated with, not that i want to be young forever
I think I understand (!) In truth, I have little personal experience relating to trans-identified people. Was involved with a gay-rights employee group for 20 years. Ostensibly we called ourselves LGBT but, in truth, no T ever joined. I did hear, as I was retiring (in 2014), that someone was reaching out. I’m seeing a lot more discussion on social media these days, of course. Lots of rancor, sadly. It’s why I think it’d be good for mtf’s, especially, to take stands ‘for women’ and support no mtfs (or dsds) in women’s competitive sports (a stand Caitlin Jennings has espoused, for instance). Don’t want to sound anti-trans but we need a reasonable discourse to try and bridge the political divides, without bashing on trans-identifying people. My studies have been in social psych, hence why I see social factors (pressures to conform to and accept gender stereotypes, social contagion, the medical-industrial complex, etc) as determinative of behaviors & ‘feelings’ to a large degree. Hormones, too but so much is socialization. It’s why I found Beauvoir eye-opening: little babies and kids are inundated with cues re: gender expectations. Peace to you!
i agree on restrictions like sports, medical transitioning can only do so much and males still have a competitive advantage in sporting even if they've undergone extensive medical feminization. i'm not so sure people transition because of gender roles, since people do not actually treat you as the other sex unless you're very lucky, not much stigma is actually escaped and i do think most transitioners know this, but those are nuances that should be discussed after a reasonable bridge on more pressing issues is reached. i also study psychology, and lean towards the belief that humans aren't infinitely malleable (the good ol nature vs nurture debate!)
i also agree on no male dsd's in women's sports, which is a more controversial position i suppose. imane khelif is a man with a congenital disorder impacting genital development, not a woman. it is not hate to say this.
a better approach would be to allow sports competition organizers to create a list of genetic, developmental and other medical conditions that are considered unfair advantage in the given sport, without calling the disqualified people "men." competitive sports are not for everyone. it's mostly just for entertainment. people like Imane Khelif could have been told that she wasn't allowed to compete in sports for medical reasons. and she could live her private life as a woman without ever being publicly humiliated and slandered.
unless the goal is to eradicate all trans people from society (regardless whether they want to do sports or not) all trans-related "concerns" could be resolved without forcing trans people to show stigmatizing M letters to random strangers who otherwise wouldn't care, and be subjected to all kinds of arbitrary gender policing, segregation and discrimination. if some pure-blood women wish for segregated spaces, they can create and maintain them as private spaces, and create their own rules (such as asking for medical documents), just in the case of sports organizers. but these should be local policies written by the operators, not state-mandated (e.g. bathroom bills). and non-segregated, trans-inclusive or gender-neutral alternatives should be available.
in the case of locker rooms, if some people have body disfigurements that can horrify or disturb others, they can be offered single-occupant spaces to avoid humiliating situations. not just testosterone damage but other disfigurements too, such as burn scars, skin conditions, regretted tattoos etc.
in medicine, chromosomes could be treated just like other medical data such as blood types or allergies. accessing such data could be life saving in certain situations, but passports and driver's licenses are not medical documents, and hypothetical medical emergencies are not a good excuse for making such data publicly available without opt-outs.
in the case of prisons, corrections officers probably know how to handle dangerous criminals. solitary confinement is always an option. but they can put violent trans-identified AMAB criminals together, or even make trans-only prisons.
in crime statistics, if the data are anonymized, they can use non-public information about the offenders, including assigned sex at birth. it still isn't necessary that such data should be publicly available, regardless whether one committed a crime or not.
so i don't think state-mandated misgendering trans people is ever necessary.
i think stealth makes sense for passing transwomen, to avoid public stigma. it is what i am shooting towards, after all. i want to change my documents. bathroom bills are dumb, women should be allowed to tell someone who obviously looks like a man to leave tho.
interesting that you're self-aware about agp but still refer to "testosterone damage" as an objective concept. the psychology of autoandrophobia... (i experience this too)
I suspect it’s more like growth hormone damage. Testosterone poisoning causes hairiness, muscularity, skin damage, scalp hair loss, loss of eyelash thickness/length and vocal damage. Those are bad enough, but relatively manageable compared to bone deformities.
Excessive growth hormone causes this acromegaly-like bone structure deformities such as big hands and feet, brow ridge, big bony nose, and an overally big face and big frame. People with such features are hard to love or sympathize with, possibly because they have smaller eyes compared to their heads. And thick bony faces are more designed for resisting punches rather than for expressing emotions.
I noticed that even puberty-blocked transsexuals have some of those features. Less so than adult transitioners but more so than cis women. So I think even pre-pubertal (or pre natal?) testosterone makes people somehow more susceptible to bone growths later in life.
...hypothetical medical emergencies are not a good excuse for making such data publicly available without opt-outs.
in the case of prisons, corrections officers probably know how to handle dangerous criminals. solitary confinement is always an option. but they can put violent trans-identified AMAB criminals together, or even make trans-only prisons.
in crime statistics, if the data are anonymized, they can use non-public information about the offenders, including assigned sex at birth. it still isn't necessary that such data should be publicly available, regardless whether one committed a crime or not.
so i don't think state-mandated misgendering trans people is ever necessary.
i think violent male offenders should not be put in trans-only wards if they existed, especially not if they trans identified post incarceration. letting any man identify into a ward for transitioners would be very dangerous for medicalized transwomen.
Its good that you recognise your orientation. I have an autohet friend. Yes the autohet narative of the feminised brain, by activists. Mis quoting research on the homosexual brain. Helps no one long term. Live your best life.
Homosexual type
i wrote about this in-depth here https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/rt2yai8JkTPYgzoEj/why-i-transitioned-a-response !
"brain sex" allows us to feel less like a failure, yes, absolutely, but there are also strong political pressures both for and against the hypothesis.
i find it's therapeutic to understand these.
"It feels so extremely broken to admit you’re a boy who just really wants to have breasts and a vagina and really wants to be desired in bed like a woman."
I can't pretend to know or even imagine what this brokenness would feel like but it's sorrowful that you feel broken by it 💔
Hope you've been well Anne
I wish I could convince you that life doesn't have to be this hard. Or this fucked up. Good luck, sex is nothing compared to the joy of being alive. Go volunteer to live with the Gazans, that'll straighten you right out!
i try to manage this mental disorder the best i can.